collapse

Author Topic: Timber Cove spots?  (Read 8889 times)

Calif_Diver

  • Guest
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2013, 12:28:08 AM »
I just look at the big abs i see on scuba ,,, they have no worries of me freediving to 55 ft. I might even remember where they were when i free dive but they are still safe from me.

Offline chaeki

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 391
  • TTASAMO - Chaeki
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2013, 06:38:35 AM »
I'm just stoked to get called a gentleman...hahaha.

PSY reference, " Mother Father Gentleman" lol

Offline Joshua R.

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2581
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2013, 09:41:17 AM »
It is definately illegal to scout abalone on scuba.  The definition of scouting may be debatable but I've met wardens that wouldn't mind you diving on scuba one day and ab diving the next.  I've also met wardens that said they would ticket someone if they saw them scuba diving one week then ab diving the same spot the following week.

As an assistant scuba instructor I have had some experience with this and the way I avoid the situation is to always do my ab diving first.  This was actually suggested to me by the wardens as a way to positively remove the suspicion of scouting on scuba and it's safer too.  When you dive scuba you're breathing compressed air and the nitrogen builds up in your system.  If you were to then go freediving, the nitrogen is still in your system and now you're making multiple rapid ascents thereby increasing the risk of getting bent.  You should always do your freediving first.

As far as ethics go, if you're diving on scuba and you see a big ab it's a guarantee that you're going to dive that area when you go ab diving.  That's not scouting that's just knowledge based hunting.  The barrier for me is if you are going to surface and try to triangulate the position of that specific ab and return without tanks or if you're just going to go back to the same cove.

Offline Lawdog (AKA "Ling Dinger")

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 604
  • What would an ocean be without a monster lurking
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2013, 10:21:48 AM »
Thought it may be easier to get the info from the horses mouth rather than give opinions:

According to Department of Fish and Game (DFG) Lt. Dennis McKiver,  a scuba diver may not assist another in the pursuit and take of abalone period. If someone is using scuba gear to find ("hunt or pursue or attempt to hunt or pursue") abalone and then marking those abalone with a physical buoy or Global Positioning System location so that a diver can more easily return to the location to take the abalone, this falls under the definition of "take."

It doesn't matter if the scuba diver is marking the location with a surface marker buoy, scuba air bubbles or is coming to the surface to point out the location to his free-diving buddy; it would all still fall under the definition of “take.” Scuba cannot be used to aid in the take of abalone in any way other than for the diver to come ashore and say, "Hey, I saw a lot of big abalone out there!"

I also agree with Mr Russo in the fact that you can bet your next paycheck if somebody observes big abs while on scuba they are more than likely going to return to that location to free dive. The Warden would have to prove in court that the exact abalone you harvested is the exact abalone you "scouted" earlier.

So we return to the definition of scouting..."objectively" looking at, If your popping buoys or taking your GPS I'd say that is in violation, if your diving for scallops, see some nice abs, and return later and dive that area I cannot see a judge upholding a citation, if you were issued one, though that is strictly my opinion based on my courtroom experience.

Again I would like to state that I don't think that was the state of mind Rottie was in when he asked if anyone had information on Timber Cove, can we all hug and go dive LOL  ;)
"Josh Russo ruined my life"

Calif_Diver

  • Guest
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2013, 10:35:04 AM »
 I've also met wardens that said they would ticket someone if they saw them scuba diving one week then ab diving the same spot the following week.

 I would hate to see that happen ,especially to me because i  don't want to have to go to court and fight that  even though i am pretty sure  i would win the case its not worth my time,

I do agree with every other thing you guys said ,,but there is no way there is a law that says you can't scuba or ab dive a place in the same week, and if a warden would ticket some one for that then he is just being a dick.

Offline BuckNasty

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 190
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2013, 10:36:54 AM »
IMHO, if it's about the trophy, or some kinda competition, then you need to get some penis enlargement, because that is what you are really talking about...no matter what you hunt.  It's about enjoying the sport, getting what you came to get out of it.  If you wanna SCUBA, and it's legal to take something on SCUBA, and you enjoy it, don't waste it, then by all means, have at it.

I go to enjoy.  enjoy the place, the friends, the diving, the food, etc.  killing something just to show that I have the biggest, that I have the best skill set, or whatever???  Not for me...I am fine with my dick.

....EXACTLY.   

Offline Lawdog (AKA "Ling Dinger")

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 604
  • What would an ocean be without a monster lurking
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2013, 11:12:16 AM »
Decided to keep researching a bit because I'm so busy right now at work LOL, found a response on another sites archive that I thought was relevant:

In order to "take" something, you have to have the intention of taking
Possession of that item while you are attempting to take it. Webster's
Dictionary defines "take" this way, "to get into one's hands or possession
by voluntary action." In this case, the SCUBA diver has no intention of
taking possession of the abalone while he is using his SCUBA gear. To mark a
spot on the ocean floor does not constitute take if there is no attempt to
take possession of the item they are marking, while using their SCUBA gear.
If the diver later takes the abalone using the legal method of take,
breath-hold diving, there is no violation. Using the terms in F&G Code
Section 86 ..."hunt, pursue, or attempt hunt, pursue" do not apply if there
is no intention of taking possession while hunting, pursuing, etc."
In other words, it is legal to use SCUBA gear to scout for abalone, as long
as no attempt is made to move or take the abalone.
If you have any further questions, let me know.

Sincerely,
Steve Riske
Patrol Lieutenant
Dept. of Fish & Game
"Josh Russo ruined my life"

Offline Duckfoot

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 983
    • Jack Shaw Sculpture
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2013, 11:28:55 AM »
Steve -- On a related subject -- I just read an article saying that it's illegal for a free diver to take an ab if another diver on SCUBA is in the water and scouted the ab. If the two divers are not on the same boat (as in dive gear and abalone on boat violation) is this story accurate? I feel it should be illegal but the definition as stated in the article seems like an overly broad definition of "take".  -- Thoughts?

http://www.petethomasoutdoors.com/2013/05/fish-and-game-q-and-a-may-30-hunting-fishing-outdoors.html
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.  –Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Offline Rob102

  • Global Moderator
  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3318
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #23 on: June 03, 2013, 11:58:47 AM »
As you can see I'm very busy too.  I am having fun with this thread though.

I was once told by a federal fish and game warden that my boat was allowed a limit according to the number of licensed fishermen aboard.  When the limit on salmon was reached by one person they didn't have to quit fishing until everybody in the boat had their limit.  When I asked the local warden he said once I had my limit I had to quit fishing. 

As far as definitions are concerned, "Take" is defined by section 86 so we can't use the dictionary to redefine take.  We can use the dictionary to define words used in the definition of take if they are not already defined by the regulation.  "Hunt" for example, is to seek, search for or attempt to find something.  Hunting has nothing to do with possession or intent to possess according to that definition.  As I said before, it seems like a grey area and interpretation is up to a judge not an officer.  What one officer may see as legal another may not.




Offline Lawdog (AKA "Ling Dinger")

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 604
  • What would an ocean be without a monster lurking
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #24 on: June 03, 2013, 12:10:04 PM »
  As I said before, it seems like a grey area and interpretation is up to a judge not an officer.  What one officer may see as legal another may not.

Agreed, since we are both working so hard we should be out diving!!!!!  ;D ;D ;D
"Josh Russo ruined my life"

Offline StinkyPete

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 894
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2013, 01:01:17 PM »
This thread is getting super interesting.  Don't worry, no one's busting my balls on it...I appreciate it since we all seem to be learning something from the thread.  Since I do both SCUBA and freediving, I'm living on the fringe anyway I'm sure.

Josh has a good point that it's extremely hard to figure out the same spot with scuba.  I tried that in Monterey once, came back a while later (this was for lingcod), and couldn't find the same spot after a few hours of freediving.  GPS and all that isn't really a realistic option when you're finding stuff at 70 feet, floating up, doing a safety stop for 3 minutes, floating up to the surface, and then trying to relocate that same spot again.  It's just too hard.

In reality, I think the citation dfg would be near impossible to prove.  Let's say that you brought a spear with you when on SCUBA and shot one fish while you were targeting abs and literally marking ab spots with a buoy like a real a**hole.  You could say that the reason for your dive was to target something else (like a lingcod you saw swimming around) and DFG would be hard pressed to prove that you were really out scouting abs.  But, like everyone said, it would be a huge waste of time for everyone involved.

Carpe piscem

Offline Duckfoot

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 983
    • Jack Shaw Sculpture
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2013, 02:29:24 PM »


Josh has a good point that it's extremely hard to figure out the same spot with scuba.  I tried that in Monterey once, came back a while later (this was for lingcod), and couldn't find the same spot after a few hours of freediving. 


That's for sure - especially on a bad viz day. A couple years before I started using a float line, went on a dive where the vis was maybe two feet.  I was doing a grid pattern based on where my anchor was set, came across this big ab only about six feet West of my anchor but needed air.  I followed the anchor line back down, went the six feet West but for the life of me couldn't find that ab!  Must have been a quick sucker!  Ethics type questions aside - GPS and triangulation will get you to the general area of a spot if it's not obvious by some other feature, but can only do so much and if used should legally (my opinion) be considered knowledge based hunting as long as there isn't a physically placed marker.  Having a diver on SCUBA in the water and "marking" an ab for another diver should obviously be illegal but the law does seem vague.  I can see how one judge may rule one way, another judge differently. And Lawdog - just re-read your post that I earlier replied to.  I may have misread it - sorry if I got your name wrong.
If you want to build a ship, don't drum up people to collect wood and don't assign them tasks and work, but rather teach them to long for the endless immensity of the sea.  –Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Offline Newgun

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 148
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2013, 03:49:14 PM »
It's clear to me.  It just depends on what the definition of is, is.

Offline todd

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 889
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2013, 07:46:51 PM »
Carrie wilson says no


Q: Is there any regulation prohibiting a photographer with scuba gear from also scouting out large abalone for a regulation-compliant abalone diver to take? Thanks in advance, and for all you do.

— Dave C.

A: The photographer in scuba cannot assist the free diver in any way. The action you describe falls within the definition of “take” under the Fish and Game Code and its regulations (see Fish and Game Code, Section 86 and California Code of Regulations Title 14, Section 1.80). Both the abalone diver and the photographer with scuba gear may be cited for violating CCR, Title 14 Section 29.15(e), which prohibits the use of scuba gear to take abalone.
Todd Stagnaro

Offline Lawdog (AKA "Ling Dinger")

  • Member
  • *
  • Posts: 604
  • What would an ocean be without a monster lurking
Re: Timber Cove spots?
« Reply #29 on: June 03, 2013, 09:00:00 PM »
What if its the third Sunday of the month and a full moon lol!
"Josh Russo ruined my life"

 

noob spearo podcast

THE SPEAR Spearfishing Podcast

Support the NCUWH Website

Help support the NorCal Underwater Hunters Website by donating today.

Your decision to contribute is strictly voluntary. If you see value in this website: meeting new dive buddies, posting dive reports, a place to post your pictures, sharing great fish stories, plan out of town hunting trips, etc..., then please contribute. All proceeds go towards supporting the costs to host and maintain this awesome website.

If you prefer to send a check or money order, please PM me, MATT MATTISON, for the address.

Thanks!
Matt