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Author Topic: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open  (Read 465 times)

Offline TheKeeneroo

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HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« on: June 11, 2018, 11:54:29 AM »
I recently had a really big ling break part of my muzzle bridge (the part that makes it "closed") on my Omer Cayman 75. It still shoots fine as is (for now), but is missing a chunk and has a crack that goes through the bridge (I can take pictures of it tonight). I'm wondering how to best convert it to an open muzzle and the only article I can find on the forum is this one: http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=64341 . The only problem is that superfrog's modification worries me that the pin he installed will catch the line and not release it like it should. I'm wondering what I could use that has some curvature to it like on the Mako guns. Do you have any advice on how to do this? Preferably with pictures? Doesn't seem to be a lot on the internet about it (that I can find). Thanks for the help!

My type of muzzle


Where mine broke


Superfrog's solution that I'm not confident will work:

« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 12:16:58 PM by TheKeeneroo »
"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails." - William Arthur Ward

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Offline Rob102

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 01:54:57 PM »
Get a new muzzle.

Offline ryang85

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 10:14:20 PM »
I recently had a really big ling break part of my muzzle bridge (the part that makes it "closed") on my Omer Cayman 75. It still shoots fine as is (for now), but is missing a chunk and has a crack that goes through the bridge (I can take pictures of it tonight). I'm wondering how to best convert it to an open muzzle and the only article I can find on the forum is this one: http://www.spearboard.com/showthread.php?t=64341 . The only problem is that superfrog's modification worries me that the pin he installed will catch the line and not release it like it should. I'm wondering what I could use that has some curvature to it like on the Mako guns. Do you have any advice on how to do this? Preferably with pictures? Doesn't seem to be a lot on the internet about it (that I can find). Thanks for the help!

My type of muzzle


Where mine broke


Superfrog's solution that I'm not confident will work:

Closed muzzles suck from my expirence. Like rob said spend 35 bucks and get a decent one.
I had a muzzle do a similar thing on my  junky old AB biller and the next dive it  compleatly shattered down the side  to the band slot when i shot at a fish.   
Not sure what the inner diameter of that barrel is but  a lot of pipe guns are standered if your in a hurry to get it. A lot if dive shops have them laying around from roller conversions and such.   35 bucks isnt bad though.
Also its better to use 291 sikaflex when installing the new muzzle. But any marine silicone will get the job done if you already have it.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 10:23:48 PM by ryang85 »

Offline TheKeeneroo

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2018, 09:43:14 AM »
Get a new muzzle.

That's what I'll end up doing, but I got a really intriguing reply from Mikel_24 on spearboard.com. It makes a ton of sense and I've already got my spear double wrapped. His answer was this:
______________________________
The Keneeroo,

Relax. This is eaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaasy. Some guns even have that "bridge" part removable for the open muzzle lovers. Long before that, some of us used to open them ourselves. Last one I recall modifying was a Picasso Century.

First, remove any burrs or left over plastic bits from the bridge part that got broken.

Second, rig your gun with TWO WRAPS of mono and do the following:
First wrap follows the traditional route: end of shaft, muzzle, back to the line release and all the way to the muzzle again. Second wrap, and this is the KEY, goes under the muzzle on one side, over the shaft, down to the other side of the muzzle, back to the line release and to the muzzle again.

The second wrap of mono is what holds your shaft in place. I have been doing this for years with a closed muzzle (Sporasub Viper) just to avoid noises from the shaft banging arround when I put the gun upside down. Works great.

Mikel
"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails." - William Arthur Ward

Eric, Pacific Grove
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Offline Rob102

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2018, 11:23:26 AM »
First of all, a closed muzzle as you discovered, is the wrong muzzle for hole shooting Ling Cod unless you have the ability and presence of mind to pull the gun back off of the shaft. With all of the urchin I don’t recommend throwing the gun back behind you.

Second, unless you have a very short gun a second wrap is useless and just more unnecessary thing to deal with. If you can shoot to the lengths of the second wrap on a 75, you are overpowered and your accuracy will suffer.

Bottom line, get the proper tool for the job rather than trying to make the wrong tool work.

Offline TheKeeneroo

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2018, 11:42:51 AM »
First of all, a closed muzzle as you discovered, is the wrong muzzle for hole shooting Ling Cod unless you have the ability and presence of mind to pull the gun back off of the shaft. With all of the urchin I don’t recommend throwing the gun back behind you.

Second, unless you have a very short gun a second wrap is useless and just more unnecessary thing to deal with. If you can shoot to the lengths of the second wrap on a 75, you are overpowered and your accuracy will suffer.

Bottom line, get the proper tool for the job rather than trying to make the wrong tool work.

I fully appreciate the insight. I love the learning curve this forum offers. I do typically throw the gun, but this beastly ling was too fast for me. I like the 75 and I have pretty good aim with it (and I don't have budget for more guns). I only ever shoot about a single wrap length with a seldom exception. However, the double wrap doesn't bother me at all and I have reloading down to a science  :P The Omer HF open muzzle rail appears to lift the shaft off the gun body rail as the muzzle "rail" is higher than the gun's rail. It seems this might affect accuracy? I'm confident I can make my current muzzle work with a bent pin like a bull horn (I already have the materials) or I can do the double wrap idea being that reloading doesn't bother me but I will concede to the guys with more experience. If the HF muzzle was made raised on purpose and it won't affect accuracy with the shaft not sitting all the way on the front barrel rail, then I'd prefer to do that route. P.s. I have the "stock" Cayman sport 75. I don't have double bands due to the burly 16.5mm euro band already in place. I appreciate your thoughts on the set up (without buying a new gun).
"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails." - William Arthur Ward

Eric, Pacific Grove
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Offline Rob102

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 12:52:04 PM »
I have had the Omer’s HF2, a cayman and a couple kanaloas. All are as accurate as any gun I’ve ever shot.  I don’t shoot them because they he’d mech issues in the past.  Having a muzzle rail that is slightly more raised than the tube rail is typical to Beuchat as well. As for accuracy, I shot an darting uku through the eyes at 16’ with a double wrapped Beuchat marlin 105cm. The Omer’s in particular were just as accurate.

If you are considering that the rear of the shaft is riding on the gun while the portion of the shaft exiting the muzzle rides higher, thereby shooting high, you may be correct, but I’d consider that to be irrelevant. Spearguns lose elevation very quickly beginning immediately as they leave the gun. A slightly raised muzzle may be by design to compensate for that drop throughout average shooting ranges or it’s insignificant. Either way, the gun is likely more accurate than the shooter.

Offline TheKeeneroo

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 02:14:06 PM »
I have had the Omer’s HF2, a cayman and a couple kanaloas. All are as accurate as any gun I’ve ever shot.  I don’t shoot them because they he’d mech issues in the past.  Having a muzzle rail that is slightly more raised than the tube rail is typical to Beuchat as well. As for accuracy, I shot an darting uku through the eyes at 16’ with a double wrapped Beuchat marlin 105cm. The Omer’s in particular were just as accurate.

If you are considering that the rear of the shaft is riding on the gun while the portion of the shaft exiting the muzzle rides higher, thereby shooting high, you may be correct, but I’d consider that to be irrelevant. Spearguns lose elevation very quickly beginning immediately as they leave the gun. A slightly raised muzzle may be by design to compensate for that drop throughout average shooting ranges or it’s insignificant. Either way, the gun is likely more accurate than the shooter.

As always, thank you for the tutilage. 3 thoughts - 1) I guess the front of the shaft sitting on a slightly higher rail/groove than the rear of the shaft just makes me wonder about wobble and physics. My current muzzle, if modified, would be flush rail to rail. I dig your last sentence in this regard. 2) you have any guns you want to get rid of at a bargain price?  ;D I can work it off by taking the new divers out to SWS like 1x/mo. 3) I am hoping that in 5-10 years from now, someone is reading this post about modifying a closed to open muzzle. I always seem to be reading forums from back in the 2005-2010 range. (...To you future reader ...you're welcome). haha
"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails." - William Arthur Ward

Eric, Pacific Grove
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Offline Adam415

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 02:26:28 PM »
I drilled a hole and put a pin to wrap around the shaft on a hammerhead a while ago. It worked great until I lost the gun.

Offline Rob102

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 02:48:13 PM »
I drilled a hole and put a pin to wrap around the shaft on a hammerhead a while ago. It worked great until I lost the gun.

Did it flood the gun? Just wondering how it would affect ballast.  Probably not at all but I Would be more concerned with the muzzle that fails during the trip.   We always carry two guns anyway but I don’t like using my back up gun.

Offline Rob102

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 02:56:03 PM »
I have had the Omer’s HF2, a cayman and a couple kanaloas. All are as accurate as any gun I’ve ever shot.  I don’t shoot them because they he’d mech issues in the past.  Having a muzzle rail that is slightly more raised than the tube rail is typical to Beuchat as well. As for accuracy, I shot an darting uku through the eyes at 16’ with a double wrapped Beuchat marlin 105cm. The Omer’s in particular were just as accurate.

If you are considering that the rear of the shaft is riding on the gun while the portion of the shaft exiting the muzzle rides higher, thereby shooting high, you may be correct, but I’d consider that to be irrelevant. Spearguns lose elevation very quickly beginning immediately as they leave the gun. A slightly raised muzzle may be by design to compensate for that drop throughout average shooting ranges or it’s insignificant. Either way, the gun is likely more accurate than the shooter.

As always, thank you for the tutilage. 3 thoughts - 1) I guess the front of the shaft sitting on a slightly higher rail/groove than the rear of the shaft just makes me wonder about wobble and physics. My current muzzle, if modified, would be flush rail to rail. I dig your last sentence in this regard. 2) you have any guns you want to get rid of at a bargain price?  ;D I can work it off by taking the new divers out to SWS like 1x/mo. 3) I am hoping that in 5-10 years from now, someone is reading this post about modifying a closed to open muzzle. I always seem to be reading forums from back in the 2005-2010 range. (...To you future reader ...you're welcome). haha

Sorry. I don’t sell my old guns.  I’m not sure why since I’ll probably never use them again. Maybe I’ll start getting rid of them when I run out of room

Offline ji

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 03:42:31 PM »
These are Hammerhead muzzle and appear similar to the modification by Superfrog? I replaced muzzle, bands and shaft when gun was new. The 700 has gone through hell and back. I'm actually surprised the pin hasn't sheared.
   




Offline Adam415

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 03:52:50 PM »
I drilled a hole and put a pin to wrap around the shaft on a hammerhead a while ago. It worked great until I lost the gun.

Did it flood the gun? Just wondering how it would affect ballast.  Probably not at all but I Would be more concerned with the muzzle that fails during the trip.   We always carry two guns anyway but I don’t like using my back up gun.
No it didn't flood, but I drilled shallow, made a small hole and used a small pin.

Offline ryang85

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 09:17:22 PM »
I drilled a hole and put a pin to wrap around the shaft on a hammerhead a while ago. It worked great until I lost the gun.

Did it flood the gun? Just wondering how it would affect ballast.  Probably not at all but I Would be more concerned with the muzzle that fails during the trip.   We always carry two guns anyway but I don’t like using my back up gun.
No it didn't flood, but I drilled shallow, made a small hole and used a small pin.
Most guns have  barrel plugs right after the muzzle and handle, if you fill the muzzle void with silicon you get away with drilling all the way through and leakage wouldnt happen. 

For that caymen you could probably drill a small hole in the muzzle directly and get some good epoxy and set a pin.



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Offline TheKeeneroo

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Re: HELP NEEDED: Converting closed muzzle to open
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2018, 08:19:25 AM »
To avoid drilling, I dremelled off the bridge and double wrapped the shaft. it appears to work great, but I'll test it out this Saturday when I dive.




"The pessimist complains about the wind; the optimist expects it to change; the realist adjusts the sails." - William Arthur Ward

Eric, Pacific Grove
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